Le L∞p's Wiki - User contributions [en]

LedFloor

2011-02-04T17:18:37Z

Cw: /* issues/open questions */

= Led Floor =

How to turn the 11 windows of the hacklab into a big led display ?

* what have we got to do it ?
** Windows that are H189xW95.5 centimeters
** 1000 red leds
** loads of RJ45 and old IDE/SCSI/floppy buses

* what we need ?
** a system to control each diode (or group of diodes) independantly
** that is not too expensive

Question: do we need on/off for each led, or more advanced modes (eg PWM for various intensities).
* on/off:
** is simpler as regard to schematics
** is simpler as regard to driving code (led bits per image, obviously)
** isn't as cool
** can still, to some extend, allow some variable intensities
PWM "natural" ability is prefered, but choice will be made depending on total cost of solution.

== Solution #1 ==

use a TLC5940NT that can control about 16 LED each

* datasheet: http://datasheet.octopart.com/TLC5940NT-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-153017.pdf
* schematic: http://webhome.csc.uvic.ca/~mcheng/samples/led_wheel/images/hack_schematic.jpg is it me or this schematic sucks big time ??? There are examples in the datasheet, way more reliable IMO --cq
* O(price) = $180 for the 64*TLC5940NT, so we'll need also several protoboard to be cut to bind them on.

Naturally leads to a PWM version

== Solution #2 ==

use the snootlab's i2c led driver solution that can control 16 LED each

* 64*i2c led driver = 9.95*64 = 636.80
* 1*i2c shield = 17.95
* 1 ardunio = 20
* O(price) = 674.75 euros

== Solution #3 ==

* use shift registers... ?

== Solution #4 ==

use two Peggy 2 board :

* 2* http://evilmadscience.com/tinykitlist/157
* O(price) = 95*2 = $180 --or far less as you won't need the giant PCB. They have a "parts kit" that includes the 328 and the IC's for $15. you'd still need LED's and transistors and other support components. --cw

looking at the peggyLE schematics, they are not using several of the outputs, it looks like a 32x30 grid is possible with the IC's included, and by adding another IC in place of the buttons 32x45 is possible. --cw
=> they use two 4 to 16 demux for highside driving. They therefore *have* to keep one output not connected, to allow an "off" state for each of these chips. One solution would be to use two such chips, plus two generic I/O, leading to a (quite ugly) 10 to 32 demux functionality. -- cq => that's only for the 74HC154's, the STP16DP05's can use all 16, so expanding that way there can 48x30 which gives 1440 LED's --cw

== Solution #5 ==

* Check with Electrolab, where another similar project is ongoing :-)
=> actually, the (current) project there is about a 8x8x8 led cube (and some pov, too). Which are a bit different. But hey, somehow these are still led based project, so why not.

== Solution #6 ==
So, the goal is to achieve a 1024 led screen, with, if possible, PWM on each led, for a total price <150€ (connectors, leds not included) ?

My proposal would be to mix #1 (eg use TLC5940 chips, for their ability to PWM their outputs) and #4 (actually, only reuse the 4 to 16 demuxes (74HC154) idea, with two additionnal GPIO from the uC to achieve a 5 to 32 demux). That is :
* two TLC5940
** drive each row in PWM mode
** can be daisy chained, and they take 8 I/O (or possibly less than that)
** cost about 3€ each at www.mouser.fr
* two 74HC154
** drive each column (one after each other)
** cost less than 1€ each
* some power stage:
** worst case is all 32 rows ON with 100mA each. So each column power driver should be able to sustain a 3.2 A continuous current.
** the evilmadscientist schematic proposes 1.5A pnp transistors ;)
** it'd be a better idea to get some (any) tougher pnp transistors (maybe few € total)
* This requires about 18 I/O for control
** it is out of reach of an Arduino (true only when all the features of the TLC5940 are used. There are solutions to use an Arduino anyway. Note that I consider UNO and similar boards, not mega ones - which are too expensive)
** it is quite doable with a Teensy (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ about $30, similar in functionalities to an arduino otherwise)
* some power input is required
** I suggest a computer PSU (reuse a standard connector to get 5v on the circuit)
* some connectors are required
** I suggest using standard RJ45 connectors (which stand 1.5A if I remember well. Meh...)
* some passives are required. As usual.

Total cost: O{100€ ?). Sounds good to me :)

==== issues/open questions ====
* will the TLC be well adapted to drive each column only 1/16th of the time ? That is, still work well when asked to somehow refresh data at (total refresh rate)*(number of columns)
** according to datasheet, the max required clock speed is 4096*(refresh frequency). Even with a *16 factor, it isn't out of reach of a simple uC
** will the leds give enough light when pulsed at max 1/16th of the time at 100mA ?
*** my guess would be: yes
* how to make the board ?
** it can be done on a standard protoboard (quite small, I would even say)
*** Check if standard PC power connectors fit on these. If not, use a wire + standard connector.
*** Check if there are thru hole RJ45 connectors available. Looks like there are some (quite cheap, O{10€} for a 8 port version) but pins won't fit on a protoboard.
*** Solid core cat5 wire will fit in a breadboard, so some keystone jacks and short lengths of cat5 can be connected
* if one want to really use 12 bit resolution for each of the 1024 leds, using a 8bit uC with 8k of RAM is... probably not the best choice
** I guess it'd be okay to downgrade the resolution to few bits per led, eg never drive LSBs for each led and use only 4bits resolution.

=> I cannot see any big flaw in this solution. Does anyone have a better view here ? --cq
* "it is really an issue to be unable to buffer data"
** wouldnt some usb to serial chips have some additionnal RAM ?
* "it wouldnt hurt to have some more processing power onboard"
* "you're such a p... to use monochrom leds"

== Solution #7 ==
Similar to #6, but instead of TL+demux, use a uC which has 64 I/O that can be dedicated to the led matrix.
* I cannot think of any chip that would be as cheap and as "simple"
* software layers would be easier
* additionnal power/interfaces would be required to drive the rows
One possible solution:
* use this : http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=4114 + an ugly extension board (on a protoboard) with 64 pnp. Someone at Electrolab can provide that board
* then, in a second design iteration, design a full custom board with this chip + transistors, connectors, ...

== Solution #8 ==
* 42 ?

LedFloor

2011-02-04T17:12:47Z

Cw: /* Solution #4 */

= Led Floor =

How to turn the 11 windows of the hacklab into a big led display ?

* what have we got to do it ?
** Windows that are H189xW95.5 centimeters
** 1000 red leds
** loads of RJ45 and old IDE/SCSI/floppy buses

* what we need ?
** a system to control each diode (or group of diodes) independantly
** that is not too expensive

Question: do we need on/off for each led, or more advanced modes (eg PWM for various intensities).
* on/off:
** is simpler as regard to schematics
** is simpler as regard to driving code (led bits per image, obviously)
** isn't as cool
** can still, to some extend, allow some variable intensities
PWM "natural" ability is prefered, but choice will be made depending on total cost of solution.

== Solution #1 ==

use a TLC5940NT that can control about 16 LED each

* datasheet: http://datasheet.octopart.com/TLC5940NT-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-153017.pdf
* schematic: http://webhome.csc.uvic.ca/~mcheng/samples/led_wheel/images/hack_schematic.jpg is it me or this schematic sucks big time ??? There are examples in the datasheet, way more reliable IMO --cq
* O(price) = $180 for the 64*TLC5940NT, so we'll need also several protoboard to be cut to bind them on.

Naturally leads to a PWM version

== Solution #2 ==

use the snootlab's i2c led driver solution that can control 16 LED each

* 64*i2c led driver = 9.95*64 = 636.80
* 1*i2c shield = 17.95
* 1 ardunio = 20
* O(price) = 674.75 euros

== Solution #3 ==

* use shift registers... ?

== Solution #4 ==

use two Peggy 2 board :

* 2* http://evilmadscience.com/tinykitlist/157
* O(price) = 95*2 = $180 --or far less as you won't need the giant PCB. They have a "parts kit" that includes the 328 and the IC's for $15. you'd still need LED's and transistors and other support components. --cw

looking at the peggyLE schematics, they are not using several of the outputs, it looks like a 32x30 grid is possible with the IC's included, and by adding another IC in place of the buttons 32x45 is possible. --cw
=> they use two 4 to 16 demux for highside driving. They therefore *have* to keep one output not connected, to allow an "off" state for each of these chips. One solution would be to use two such chips, plus two generic I/O, leading to a (quite ugly) 10 to 32 demux functionality. -- cq => that's only for the 74HC154's, the STP16DP05's can use all 16, so expanding that way there can 48x30 which gives 1440 LED's --cw

== Solution #5 ==

* Check with Electrolab, where another similar project is ongoing :-)
=> actually, the (current) project there is about a 8x8x8 led cube (and some pov, too). Which are a bit different. But hey, somehow these are still led based project, so why not.

== Solution #6 ==
So, the goal is to achieve a 1024 led screen, with, if possible, PWM on each led, for a total price <150€ (connectors, leds not included) ?

My proposal would be to mix #1 (eg use TLC5940 chips, for their ability to PWM their outputs) and #4 (actually, only reuse the 4 to 16 demuxes (74HC154) idea, with two additionnal GPIO from the uC to achieve a 5 to 32 demux). That is :
* two TLC5940
** drive each row in PWM mode
** can be daisy chained, and they take 8 I/O (or possibly less than that)
** cost about 3€ each at www.mouser.fr
* two 74HC154
** drive each column (one after each other)
** cost less than 1€ each
* some power stage:
** worst case is all 32 rows ON with 100mA each. So each column power driver should be able to sustain a 3.2 A continuous current.
** the evilmadscientist schematic proposes 1.5A pnp transistors ;)
** it'd be a better idea to get some (any) tougher pnp transistors (maybe few € total)
* This requires about 18 I/O for control
** it is out of reach of an Arduino (true only when all the features of the TLC5940 are used. There are solutions to use an Arduino anyway. Note that I consider UNO and similar boards, not mega ones - which are too expensive)
** it is quite doable with a Teensy (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ about $30, similar in functionalities to an arduino otherwise)
* some power input is required
** I suggest a computer PSU (reuse a standard connector to get 5v on the circuit)
* some connectors are required
** I suggest using standard RJ45 connectors (which stand 1.5A if I remember well. Meh...)
* some passives are required. As usual.

Total cost: O{100€ ?). Sounds good to me :)

==== issues/open questions ====
* will the TLC be well adapted to drive each column only 1/16th of the time ? That is, still work well when asked to somehow refresh data at (total refresh rate)*(number of columns)
** according to datasheet, the max required clock speed is 4096*(refresh frequency). Even with a *16 factor, it isn't out of reach of a simple uC
** will the leds give enough light when pulsed at max 1/16th of the time at 100mA ?
*** my guess would be: yes
* how to make the board ?
** it can be done on a standard protoboard (quite small, I would even say)
*** Check if standard PC power connectors fit on these. If not, use a wire + standard connector.
*** Check if there are thru hole RJ45 connectors available. Looks like there are some (quite cheap, O{10€} for a 8 port version) but pins won't fit on a protoboard.
* if one want to really use 12 bit resolution for each of the 1024 leds, using a 8bit uC with 8k of RAM is... probably not the best choice
** I guess it'd be okay to downgrade the resolution to few bits per led, eg never drive LSBs for each led and use only 4bits resolution.

=> I cannot see any big flaw in this solution. Does anyone have a better view here ? --cq
* "it is really an issue to be unable to buffer data"
** wouldnt some usb to serial chips have some additionnal RAM ?
* "it wouldnt hurt to have some more processing power onboard"
* "you're such a p... to use monochrom leds"

== Solution #7 ==
Similar to #6, but instead of TL+demux, use a uC which has 64 I/O that can be dedicated to the led matrix.
* I cannot think of any chip that would be as cheap and as "simple"
* software layers would be easier
* additionnal power/interfaces would be required to drive the rows
One possible solution:
* use this : http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=4114 + an ugly extension board (on a protoboard) with 64 pnp. Someone at Electrolab can provide that board
* then, in a second design iteration, design a full custom board with this chip + transistors, connectors, ...

== Solution #8 ==
* 42 ?